Politics & Society
Danish citizen responds to MM Lee’s “mediocre government” comment
Today, I received an interesting comment from a reader all the way from Denmark. Here is his well-researched and insightful response, reproduced in full.
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I read with interest Mentor Minister Lee Kuan Yew’s remark in Singapore’s Parliament that Denmark, Finland and Switzerland can afford mediocrity in the remuneration of their ministers.
I shall restrict my observations to Denmark and Finland.
These 2 Nordic countries reward their leaders, in both the private and public sectors, somewhat less handsomely than Singapore. Despite this, I would suggest that both countries’ governments are by no means mediocre, and neither have they evinced any indication of being able to afford it.
Finland has managed to weather the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 90s, a market for 20% of its exports, in no small part due to its successful transformation from a resource-based to a knowledge-based economy. Its leading multinational, Nokia, is the market leader in the mobile telecommunications industry, with a global market share of 36% in the manufacture of mobile phones (Q42006) and revenues of €41.121 billion (2006). While most of the credit for this success story can be attributed to the Finnish private sector, Finland’s government had a significant role to play in creating the optimal framework for the flourishing of the technology sector. From the mid 1960s onwards, there were special efforts to expand higher education, with a law on higher education passed in 1966, the result being that Finns are some of the most well-educated people in the world.
The Finnish government was also instrumental in pushing for the promotion of GSM as the European mobile telephony standard, based on the Nordic countries’ experience of NMT, an earlier, pan-Nordic standard. The early adoption of GSM in Finland provided the platform for Nokia’s global breakthrough. Decades before the global liberalization of telecommunications markets in the 1990s, Finland’s telecoms market had already been liberalized, and thus had possibly the world’s most competitive market for telecom operators and equipment makers. Credit for this is in no small part due to the role of the Finnish government. Finland devotes a higher percentage of its GNP to research and development than most countries, and the role of the government has been critical, especially in the early 90s, where public-funded research increased despite recession.
In the case of Denmark, the government made the decision in the 1970s to intensify research into renewable energy. Important research was carried out at Risoe, the government research centre, into wind energy. It took political courage to subsidize feeder tariffs for wind turbine-produced electricity. That decision has paid off handsomely. Today, Danish-based companies have a global market share of ca. 50% in the manufacture of wind turbines, an industry with global annual growth rates of 30%, and estimated revenues of €10 billion (2006, est.). Indeed Denmark’s Vestas has recently set up engineering and research facilities in Singapore.
In more general terms, I would submit that both countries’ systems and governments are not mediocre, and are like Singapore’s, acutely aware of not being able to afford it. Rather than Europe being there to catch Finland and Denmark should they falter, both countries have been net contributors to the European Union budget since their accession. Mediocrity is not a hallmark of either society either. In the last 30 years, both countries, despite their small populations, have produced individuals who have won Olympic gold medals, Oscars and Nobel Prizes. They have produced New Economy pioneers, for example Finland’s Linus Torvalds, the creater of Linux (an open-source operating system and competitor to Microsoft’s Windows) and Denmark’s Janus Friis, co-founder of Skype (a peer-to-peer telephony application).
In conclusion, both countries’ positions as globally competitive economies and high-achieving societies have been attained against the backdrop of low corruption levels, and high levels of trust between citizens and government, and seemingly despite high taxes and comprehensive welfare states. This has not required stratospheric levels of remuneration of government leaders and officials.
Mr. Gregory Glen
Holstebro, Denmark
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Mr. Gregory Glen says that”
In the last 30 years, both countries, despite their small populations, have produced individuals who have won Olympic gold medals, Oscars and Nobel Prizes. They have produced New Economy pioneers, for example Finland’s Linus Torvalds, the creater of Linux (an open-source operating system and competitor to Microsoft’s Windows) and Denmark’s Janus Friis, co-founder of Skype (a peer-to-peer telephony application).”
So what Singapore truly produces compared to Denmark, Finland ?
Amazingly, almost nothing at all !!! Those olympic gold medals are pathetic oftening relying on FT and even those local athlete talent aren’t treat well as talent, just digits and figure that help make look good how gov can produce world-class winner, and yeah credit to gov again !!!
Oscars ? [censorship snip]
Nobel Prices ? Well, we don’t have nobel prices but we pay “Noble Prices” in term of voting our so called talented and extraordinary gov and then they paying extraordinary high salary to themselves and then lavish extraordinary praise and singing of how good they are wrapped in their extraordinary thick-skin.
It is indeed shameful and disgust as a Singaporean to tramp down other country gov’s capabilities where our own gov can’t even compared. Where other country’s gov strongly believe and groom the local talent, our pathetic PAP resort to importing FT to groom the economic and think that Singapore can be creative and innovative using FT!!! Singaporean don’t feel like People at all because they have no voice and no pride, and no dignity.
Mr. Gregory Glen, I really apologised to you and your country on behalf of my country’s arrogant gov’s remark.
Until the our gov learn to be humble, I as a Singaporean has no respect for our whities and pappies.
Fart up.
The last sentence by Mr. Gregory Glen is… …..damn good!
on behalf of all singaporeans, i apologize for the old man’s utterences, please do what singaporeans do and ignore them
He shouted freedom, but built a fiefdom instead. This old man is too full of himself.
To Mr Gregory Glen, the people of Denmark and Finland, please accept my sincere apologies.
Singapore certainly has very few innovations compared to the two Nordic countries. We do have SingTel, which is amazingly good as a telco. But for the MM to run down other governments, that’s downright childish.
As for the ministers pay here, why don’t they just peg it to GNP growth? If the economy does well, they get rewarded. If the economy does badly, it would also imply that the country isn’t managed well, and they should take a pay cut too.
MM, not me the MM, picked the wrong countries to shout at - Nokia, renewable energy pioneer, Nobel Prize winners. What do we have GICs?
Our gov should pegged their pay on the economics of Denmark, Finland and Switerland, Swiss, so that the disgusting oldman does not utter nonsense against these wonderful and beautiful countries again !!!
Oldman,
please stop insulting other countries again !!! We are just tiny red dot and therefore will like to live peacefully with other countries. There are Singaporean living and working in Denmark, Finland and Europe countries and around Asia. Just because of your rubbish that make all Singaporean look bad and feel unsecure in those countries. Spare a thought for others !!!!
Don’t ever make use of other countries to justify your own interest and agenda and also your own pappies pay. It’s very extremely shameful for a your so-called First world gov to say thing that is untrue and definitely doesn’t do anything constructive where those countries actually had their MNC in Singapore instead !!!
Please behave yourself, oldman because you are not young anymore. Spare a thought for your son too. He has to manage the country eventually.
And please, I love Nokia phone. Please don’t let me paid high price for it because of some rubbish.
i would like to encourage Mr Glen to submit his comments to the Straits Times Forum - Iwould like to hear what the Spore gov. has to say .
Spore: I don’t think they’ll publish it even if you submit it.
I think Mr Glen’s opinions were pretty moderated, well researched and offers a non-biased view.
Sometimes the ST will consider publishing such articles… I hope he does write in, so that more Singaporeans will be aware of how people in other countries perceive our government’s remarks.
But now that the dust has settled, any hopes of modifications to the salary increment plan is gone. Well, this is not the first time that public opinion is disregarded/dispeled in the formulation of policies anyway.
Mr. Gregory Glen, you have spoken for all of us Singaporeans who have seen through the hyprocrisy of one geriatic who is holding on tenuously to power because, in his heart of hearts, he knows his son is not fit for office. His mistaken belief in genetic supremacy has already been debunked by the Almighty with an autistic and a albino grandson, and now he even confesses his erroneous choice of making his son learn the Russian language. So much for his much vaunted talent.
Well written. In the early independence days, the MIW rallies the people, now they just insults them. i mean it takes two hands to clap and only one to slap, think that’s what we have been getting in recent years. The old man has been around too long, who’s really running the country, ex cancer stricken man or Freddie Kruger.
“Well, this is not the first time that public opinion is disregarded/dispelled in the formulation of policies anyway.”
Was there ever a time when it happened otherwise? Not to my recollection.
All this drama (ie. debate) just makes Singaporeans look even more stupid. We are like dogs being taunted and barking like crazy - even angrily. However, after the ‘taunter’ has had his fun, he justs turns and walks away coolly. We, the ‘dogs’, continue to bark a bit more before stopping and continuing with our mundane lives.
Also, it occurred to me that all this ‘debate’ could be for the purpose of ‘on-the-job training’ for the earmarked ministers to practice defending their position and dealing with an irate public. With no proper opposition, this could actually be a non-threatening way (for the ministers, that is) to ’spar’.
Interesting theory, no? Plausible though….
>>To Mr Gregory Glen, the people of Denmark and Finland,
>> please accept my sincere apologies.
Please do not apologises on the old man behalf. He should do it himself right???
I wonder how much can a person bring with him/her when he/she dies.
Think about:-
a) Shincorp deal
b) Suzhou project
c) NKF
d) recent economic recession and huge job losses -
Why have they not pre-empted this and shielded the people from the effects?
Is this not mediocre govt? Yet still dare to ask for pay rise?
Sounded like the Another Great NKF saga (where Durai and his gang padded themselves with huge pay packets) but this is done on a much greater scale and more tact and elegance.
Just like we have legalised gambling - Toto, 4-D, and coming legalised Casino, now we have legalised self-account top-up.
Dear readers, please note the disclaimer on the right column of my site, and I’d appreciate if readers can help me filter out inappropriate comments that I may have missed.
I will try my best not to over-moderate comments, but please understand the need for censorship sometimes.
I applaud Mr Glen for being able to keep his cool and present his case for Germany & Finland in such a un-biased manner.
What are we to compare to any other country? We are mediocre in every sense of the word, literally and metaphorically.
PAP is surviving on the good opinions of them from Singaporeans in their 50 & above, simply because they have seen how, and I quote from my similarly aged mother “they brought Singapore to prosperity.. Without them we would be nothing…” I don’t disagree, but now that we are better off than 40 years ago, do we have to start opening bribing our leaders? Do we have to start under-mining other countries to bring ourselves in a better light? And all along he comments that because we are such a small country, we depend a lot on good inter-country relationships?? So what is this? He just smashed his foot with a stone he picked up himself.
Dear mrbiao,
Perhaps, my comments have been over zealous and inappropriate for public viewing. Kindly have it removed immediately. Thanks!
Mediocre govt, I had no issues with your post. I think it was true in fact.
However, at your request I have removed it.
Hope you can continue commenting, because discussion is a good thing.
Reene > Yes, I think it’s a shame too that we have to make ourselves look so ugly to others. I think humility is a very important criteria for a country’s leaders.
Look at Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao… he heads one of the largest economic powerhouse in today’s world yet he is still quite humble, even going to Japan and self-introducing himself to aunties there “I am Wen Jiabao”… even though he’s probably aware that people already know of him. This is something to respect him for.
We are a small red dot, but our leaders go around telling other countries how to improve themselves and boasting of their achievements. Very sad indeed, and it reflects badly on Singaporeans on the whole.
Mr Glen’s letter highlights a few points which have been glossed over by the stratosphericaly paid talents of Singapore.
Finland and Denmark do have world-class economies despite scarce resources. Singapore, despite the talents claim that it is resource poor, sits on a resource rich location which makes it a transport, travel and business hub. This fact alone enables Singapore to flourish.
The MM also said not to compare apples with oranges - what better comparison can be drawn than against the leaders of these forward looking countries rather than some arbitrarily drawn median of private sector positions (not even individuals, as their pay can fluctuate from year to year).
I do feel sorry for the state of affairs in the little red dot if the leaders continue to be so self serving…
Each country is unique with its own set of unique problems.
Comparing Singapore to Finland or Denmark is not an apple-to-apple comparison. Socio-economic and political issues are different. For example - Finland and Denmark went through different paths in the forming of their nations.
they did not go through the hellish period we went through when we’re gaining independence from the British. They were already “one” people. Politics then for Singapore-Malaya, (and some might argue even to this day) were bordered on racial (Malays versus Chinese versus Indians) and ideological (communist vs capitalist) fronts. Indonesia was carrying out the Confrontation on Malaya. Vietnam, right at our doorstep, was having a civil war.
What’s sad in this episode is the “God Syndrome” - that one is untouchable, what one says is assumed to be the gospel truth.
mrbiao,
Your contributor should write to the Straits Times Forum. It is a very well written letter and explains why the Danish and Finnish Governments are not mediocre. The last paragraph of course is succint and will require clarification from the MM why he made such statements. He should be given the opportunity to justify his $3m salary.
Thanks to mrbiao for bringing Mr Glen’s response to our attention.
Thanks to Mr Glen for taking the time to correct our leaders. You are doing us a big favor and doing your country right.
I learnt something about Finland and Denmark reading your comments. I like to congratulate the Nordic countries for having done so well for yourselves without having to put up with our style of government and the self-serving nature of some of its actions.
Our government should not have to resort to scare tactics and unnecessarily putting other countries down in order to further their own arguments. It is rather unfair and uncalled for.
When I first visited a number of western countries that are much bigger than Singapore, I noted that some of the citizens in these countries are so ill-informed about events outside of the countries. I eventually concluded that their countries are huge compared to Singapore and many of its citizens have no need to be concerned about many of the countries and events outside of their own country. However, it is not the same for Singapore. We have a open economy and a very small land mass and have to be aware of happenings in our region and around the world that affect us or potentially may affect us in a big way.
However, our government’s comments recently have shown that they are in no way better than some of the residents in some small towns in Germany or outback in Australia. They, at least have the right excuse not to be concerned with what’s happening outside of their community or their large country. Our government, cannot lay claims to the same excuses. Their comments about Nordic countries and Switzerland has only painted them as ‘frogs in the well’ (this expression has roots in a Chinese proverb referring to the world view of the frog trapped in a well - LIMITED) or worst.
Our super efficient government has produced some remarkable economic results for our country in the last 30 years but in terms of building a gracious society, making this country a better home, uniting its people and building truly loyal citizens, it has some way to go yet. We have much we can learn from your country and its practices.
I particularly applaud the fact that your countries have managed to excel in many areas and not just in economical ways. You have proven that with a small population, high taxes and cost of living, you are still able to develop and prosper economically and at the same time, being able to provide for your citizens, provide excellent quality of life and give them a good standard of living. All without having to pay your government obscene amount in remunerations.
In contrast, we are being told we have to pay astronomical amount to our leaders so that they may not jump ship, shirk their responsibilities or accept bribes because the million paid to them is insufficient. We need to do all these and pay the right price so that we may someday attain the level of achievements that Denmark and Finland have today.
Thank you for opening our eyes to where our government truly stands in comparison to the best in the world.
I look forward to visiting your country one of these days and I have no doubts many of my fellow Singaporeans will also welcome you to visit our relatively mediocre country and see for yourself the work of our relatively mediocre government.
This pay issue has been inappropriately raised at the wrong time so soon after the NKF saga and even when it has not blown over.
If I do not recall wrongly, in the heat of the NKF debate, the opposition MPs has warned or hinted in parliament of a bigger NKF.
Isn’t it foolish of the Mediocre govt now to seemingly fulfil that prophecy?
Now M&M is saying the competent govt is even pre-empting global warming effects and learning how to build dykes in case Singapore goes under but he is conveniently forgetting to mention they had failed to pre-empt the recent recession and job losses which is more closer to our hearts and pockets.
Instead of building dykes, why have they not considered more creative alternatives like buying land from the Johor govt in the event Singaporeans needed to evacuate?
Or bite the bullet and start buying more sand from the Malaysian government to raise Singapore’s floor level in exchange for helping the Malaysians dig a huge and long channel in northern Malaysia cutting from its west coast to the east coast to allow ships to pass through to the South China Sea? A win-win situation?
Any man in the street can now second-guess what our ministers will also be doing next - looking at quake-proofing all our HDB blocks(why was this not pre-empted?) and also placing life boats strategically all over Singapore at the void decks for a potential tsunami from the easterly direction.
Is this what we want our multi-million dollar ministers to be paid to do - wasting taxpayer’s money on these remote probabilities?
Mediocre govt> One good solution for the dyke issue… stop more FT from coming in!
2 million more people and I am afraid Singapore will really begin to sink into the sea!
If u want apple to apple comparison, we just have to look at other once-British-colonised, small-sized port cities in the world such as HK or Gibraltar. The fact that a city has a small poulation to feed, enjoys strategic geographical location which enables it to serve as a trading port and having a sophisticated legal and govt system (and language) imported by their colonial masters would more or less balance out factors like the country’s small size and lack of natural resources and hence such port cities always had the necessary conditions to flourish. Otherwise, why did immigrants want to flock to this fishing village if it was really such a hopeless place before the mighty PAP was formed?
Surely, the PAP’s constant harping of Singapore’s small size and lack of natural resources is self-serving.
FT may not be bad at all if we also allow FT (cheaper and more affordable) ministers.
I had a grandma who died at a ripe old age of 99. She used to make statements regardless of who she addressed. Because of her seniority, she was able to get away with it.
I assume it is the same for our MM.
I am a matured professional returned after a working stint in China. I am unemployed for a year already. I gathered that there is a big challenge for the government to look into re-employment of matured professionals as most of the jobs ‘created’ are low-skill and less than 1000 sing dollars. For me who has dependent and liabilities to meet, I cannot take it as alternative. I have also discussed with the officials (scholars and high degrees)- no solutions available. Common remarks, you are not within the criteria of NEED.
When I requested for deferred of charges, I was told I can do with instalment plan and yes, you still need to pay now. Cannot owe…and interest will still be charged as according to Town council and SP…
When the government declared that they need to raise the paychecks of all their ministers and civil servants, I was sad.
This comes in as salt into the wound. And there are some 25,000 such people like me wondering what help can be given…
The reason as cited for pay increase is to minimise the drainage to commercial. I like to know how many were successful in the commercial world after they left the civil service?? Is there data that shows they are in demand??
How many white horses were kept in payroll and yet not producing??
>greenroof,
Following MM’s quoting style, “What we need to put a stop to all this talk on pay rise is a good dose of bad ministers failing and floundering in the private sectors. Their wife and children will be begging in the streets and coffeeshops or working as maids or whores in Malaysia or Batam.”
Aygee said: “Comparing Singapore to Finland or Denmark is not an apple-to-apple comparison. Socio-economic and political issues are different. For example - Finland and Denmark went through different paths in the forming of their nations. They did not go through the hellish period we went through when we’re gaining independence from the British. They were already “one” people.”
Ha. Finland was part of Sweden, then Russia. They had a civil war in 1918 and then were invaded by the Russians in WW2. The word ‘Finlandization’ became part of our vocabulary as Finland maintained its independence right next to the power of the former Soviet Union.
Denmark was invaded by the Germans in 1940. They have also been attacked by Britain. They, like Finland and Switzerland, have tried very hard to keep politically neutral. If you include Greenland, Denmark is actually one of the largest countries in the world, and certainly has one of the longest and most beautiful shorelines.
If it weren’t so cold, either of these places would be a far better place than Singapore to live in. Then again… even with the cold, they might be better in some ways.
Singapore may not have resources like gold; but it has the location which allows it to be the gateway between East and West; thus the founding of Modern Singapore by Raffles in 1819. Also, the fact that Singapore is not on any teutonic plate and not susceptible to natural disasters makes it a safer place for people to set up shop here. Thus it would be a folly to attribute EVERYTHING to the old guard.
Hi,
I hope you all can visit the comments i posted on government forum on called ‘Reach’. It was called ‘Feedback’ last time.
http://app.reach.gov.sg/reach/YourSay/YourDiscussionCorner/tabid/117/ptid/414/threadid/176/forumtype/posts/Default.aspx
It’s true that Scandinavia was overrun in WWII, but so were we, so we’re equal on that.
Elsewhere, Denmark and Finland have plenty of advantages. They have natural resources. We have none. They’re in the middle of a properous region called Europe, we have Indonesia and Malaysia, this may not be as bad as being the only Jewish country surrounded by Arabs but enough of a disadvantage. Southeast Asia is not as advanced as Europe. They have water, we do not. They have land, we do not.
They don’t have to be a gateway between the East and the West because they are already living in the mansion.
They have a great history and civilisation to draw from, we make do with what our grandfathers brought over in their crappy leaky junks. Basically they have been “first world” since the “first world” existed, we have only been there for like 20-30 years.
They discovered quantum mechanics when we were still a coolie quarters.
I think we’re doing fine, actually.
Most importantly, some of them are paying 80% income tax so if any of their leaders dared to pay themselves what our leaders are paying themselves, the whole cabinet would be executed and have their heads on pikes faster than you can blink your eye.
sieteocho:
Exactly my point; we’re equal on that.
Furthermore, we have plenty of advantages. We have much better sea access and strategic position than they have. I don’t think they’re living in the mansion; more like perching on the roof, perhaps. We have a great history and civilisation - more than one in fact, which is the problem.
And yes, you should see their VAT too. But the point is not that we’re doing fine relative to them. MM insulted them; the point is that they are doing fine relative to -us- . Haha…
Look at it this way -
Upper and middle class people in those countries are just as well-off if not better than Singapore’s
Poor people in those countries are definitely better off than Singapore’s
So who wins ultimately? A country where all citizens fare relatively well or a country where the rich is super-rich and the poor lives with $290 a month… (and the $30 rise took quite a bit of haggling to get, while $200mil worth of increments for the already well-to-do senior civil servants come easily)
… yet the government calls itself a world-class, excellent and extraordinary government?
When Singapore runs out of land for future capital deepening via a growing population… we’ll see whether we can still do well, or will our women eventually need to go be maids in China, Thailand or even Indonesia.
Actually I would dispute that we are as well positioned as them. I would gladly trade away being in the middle of a great sea route for having economically dynamic neighbours like Sweden, Germany, Poland, France, anytime. I would trade ASEAN for the EU. I would trade having almost no land to having so much land I wouldn’t know what to do with it.
I don’t think we have a great history compared to them. Remember we are talking about our country, so we are talking about Singapore’s history, not China’s history or India’s history. It is absolutely not fair to compare achievements with them because we are comparing only 20-30 years when we’re in control of our destiny, to more than 200-300 years for Denmark and Finland. After 20-30 more years it will be clearer whether we are on the right track.
Poor people are definitely better off over there than in Singapore. But rich people are not better off, because of the really high tax bracket.
I’m not for MM criticising other countries like that. In fact I’m not exactly sure what role a government can play in the achievements of the people. In fact I think that too many people have the illusion that the government can do something wonderful and they don’t try hard enough, that is the great weakness in Singapore. It’s even possible that the government stifling SMEs with GLCs has hindered our progress.
But when you want to compare achievements of Singapore and Denmark / Finland I think you need to be fair. Hong Kong would be a better comparison, because they are a former British colony too. But they have better foreign talent than us. (By “foreign talent” I mean they take the cream of the crop from China.)
DEAR Readers,
just dont waste and time pay attention to MM reamrks.he thinks Finland/Denmark is so far away singaporeans will not visit n ascertain the TRUTH.
Mm just got alesson from Indonesia n forced to sign extradiction treaty after decades of refusal.
More coming his way, Standby!!
Cyberspace debate/grumbling is a waste of time, although good for the soul. Same goes for our Parliamentary debate_ good also for looking good. Danish citizen should have written in to ST, then to the NST in Malaysia, if the former would not publish his letter. Why doesn’t anyone ask: “If our Govt is so good, capable and efficient, why do we need a SM and a MM, and why pay them as much, if not more than the PM? What do they do to deserve their pay, especially MM, who by his own admission, does not get involved in policy making?” NB: Sieteocho has too little appreciation of the political tightrope Finland walked for years before the collapse of the Soviet Union; too little appreciation for the limitations of its climate/geography. He there4 credits too much its proximity, access to and historical links with Europe for its success. Finland could easily have become like Lithuania.
to sieteocho
u credit the success of HK to talents from China - does HK need to pay them so much to make HK successful?
in the same breath, do u think Singapore would be as successful w/o the talents from Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries?
look at the richest Singaporeans - many of them are former Malaysians, Indonesians, Chinese Nationals etc.
To compare Singapore with Hong Kong, in the 90s, economists confirmed that Singapore’s growth was due to increase in capital investment, while Hong Kong’s success was due to its focus on technology improvements. We can see that Hong Kong, if not better than Singapore, has been just as well off.
Recently, Singapore’s revision of corporate taxes was also to better compete with Hong Kong. Does that imply that we are indirectly conceding defeat, that we cannot attract foreign investment by other means? I am sure foreign companies don’t choose their corporate HQs just because of one or two percentage point difference in taxes.
So let’s try to be more conservative and assume that Hong Kong is doing just as well if not better than Singapore. Then, Hong Kong legislators should be given as well a pay as their Singapore counterparts.
Now that Hong Kong is again part of China, it still enjoys tremendous economic success despite theories that mainland will steal some of the business away. Also, despite under the communist rule of mainland China, Hong Kong SAR has been able to maintain a relatively higher level of freedom of expression than what we have here in supposedly democratic Singapore.
Cyberspace “grumbling” is good, as we can learn from one another and help to bring awareness to some of those who couldn’t otherwise be bothered to believe in anything else other than what they read in the ST.
I’m not going to do what I normally do with movies, which is to pontificate over them until I cum in your faces. So this will be brief.
Mr Glen,
Thank you for your article. My apologies for the insensitivity of the remark made by our MM. Put in some imagination as to what “MM” means and you will probably find it easier to pardon him for what he has uttered. Whatever it is, our lives as a common Singapore citizen is very much robotic (even if we hate to admit it). The entire system has been clock worked for the past 40 years or more to make us “behave ourselves” while someone else’s makes and carries out decisions (insensitively) regardless of what most Singaporeans think. Life is a rat race and there are economic cycles, struggles, competition and etc..etc.. .While I do not undermine what our leaders have done successfully, I think it is paramount that our leaders having gone through the process of receiving so many blessings over the years also learn to exercise sensitivity to the outside world. The insensitivity exercised within our country will not be tolerated elsewhere.
What is ours today will be somebody’s else’s tomorrow…and what can we truly bring to our grave??? So it is best to work hard at something and yet learn to be humble while making more friends.
While the ministers and MPs get ridiculoously sharp pay increment (when times are good), are they ready to get heavy pay cut when time’s not so good??..like someone suggested to peg their pay to GDP or some system. Our government is very good at devising such schemes of reward, why not do it now?
Just as how public transport fares will not drop when the economy is bad… we don’t need to pin too much hopes on drastic pay cuts for senior civil servants when times are bad.
First, some of these comments under “sieteocho” are going to be from me, and others are going to be from an imposter, and I trust you know which is which.
As to why the cream of the crop from China would choose to go to Hong Kong ahead of Singapore, the answer is very simple: just look at a map. You don’t need incentives. While it is true that Singapore takes in the best from the region, it’s just not the same as taking the best from China.
I don’t want to say that our ministers deserve such high salaries, or that HK is not better than Singapore. I’m only saying that Singapore shouldn’t be compared to Finland and Denmark.
Singapore did walk a milder version of the tightrope that Finland walked, similar tightropes walked by HK, Taiwan and Korea, even though only HK had to depend on a more powerful neighbour for water. It’s not that we don’t have neighbours who hate us: Singapore very narrowly escaped a terrorist attack not long after 9/11.
And another assumption I want to question is why everybody looks at the success of a country and credits it to the government. Of course they play a part, but whether Singapore is an achiever or not, maybe it’s also a reflection of the quality of our people.
In the midst of all this discussion, an interesting thought to ponder over is that the onus of the consequences arising from ministers turning corrupt should fall on the Government themselves as they should approve the character and moral standing of the candidates before they represent the people.
Instead of arguing that more pay will keep them from turning to dirty means, one should question the “heart” that these supposed MIW are supposed to have.
If a minister is chosen well, even if he or she is paid $2,000 a month, he or she should still do the job well and without corrupted means because of the strong belief and vocation in serving the people. And not because of that multi million dollar salary.
Just my two cents’ worth.
It’s true that the success of a country depends on the people as much as the government… so in the case of Singapore, is the success (or lack of it) due more to the government or to the people?
But if we look at it this way… people are educated by government imposed education systems. We lead our lives and make decisions based on various systems imposed by the government. People are not born smart, not born gracious, not born kiasu or money minded. It’s how the decisions made by the government affect the society which in turn affects individual’s behavior and decisions.
Which is why people in some countries are still much more polite than Singaporeans despite having lower levels of education. It is the societical effect that government policies cause.
Hmmm… people talk about Singaporeans being rude, I wonder if they’ve ever been to Hong Kong or Shanghai or New York. And is it true that people in those places are less educated than Singapore.
But I think that people usually think in either of 2 ways:
1. The government is very powerful and we are successful because of it.
2. The government is very powerful and is screwing us all up.
But have you considered a 3rd possibility:
3. The government didn’t affect us that much.
Maybe Singapore is successful because Chinese people seem to succeed anywhere they go. The government didn’t have anything to do with Singaporeans being hardworking.
Maybe if the government tells you 1 thing and your mother tells you another thing you listen to your mother.
Maybe the really successful people, the great businessmen are not the type of people who like to listen to the government.
Maybe all along the government is claiming too much credit.
The quality of a country’s people is certainly reflective of its government. In the same vein, the way a country’s people behave outside of their home country reflects the attitude of its government. Bear in mind, however, that the government is made up of many characters/personalities.
Having travelled quite extensively and lived/worked in Shanghai in the mid-90s, I’ve met many Singaporeans abroad who are arrogant, loutish and downright rude. I’ve also met Singaporeans who are courteous, helpful and kind. ‘Citizens of the world’ as I define them.
One can’t deny that in our formative years, we needed a certain self-confidence and bravado in order to progress. The plaudits have been well-documented over the decades. However, in progressing to a First World country, I feel we are behind in terms of our EQ. The attitudes of the previous generation need to be tempered now with a certain ‘diplomatic sophistication’.
I agree that before we make remarks about others, we need to look at ourselves.
While it is inevitable that toes will be stepped on, I think our government needs to carefully consider the ramifications of remarks that are made by its senior leaders. I for one do not agree that they reflect the sentiment of our people because having been to northern Europe (albeit as a tourist), I marvel at the quality of life their citizens enjoy.
Unless the countrymen can convince the government otherwise, I believe the pay hike is a done deal. This issue is very educational not only to the Singaporeans but to the whole world as well. The way it was carried out had certainly created ripples …
I just got news that Singapore Govt is to be awarded a Nobel Prize
For Humility and Highest Salaries in the World !
The Envy of the World !!
If the MM is reminded of all the achievements of the countries that he labelled as having “mediocre” government, he might left the comparison out of his speech.
But the MM appears not to be one who accepts other views well. He is entrenched in his own views. For years, he’s ruffled feathers everywhere. He’s got his admirers and detractors.
The argument is simple-
If you want to be friends with the Singapore people, share their fate, hopes and dreams and have the same future
Otherwise join the ranks of the greedy, money grabing CEOs
Who voted them in office any way ? The ordinary honest hardworking Singaporeans or the conniving business leaders ?
just had a thought this morning - there seems to be a very close parallel of this situation with a recent gold tap incident…
the protagonist was a hard working idealist and decided that he would like a larger remuneration for the work he carried out. after all he was not well paid in the earlier years and sacrificed so much, was away from his family and worked 20hrs a day. the results of his efforts was a world class institution recognised internationally.
to ensure continued success he selected and picked capable like minded people and gave them large remuneration packages. to satisfy the public, his own package was approved by a board committee.
please draw your own conclusions…
Its good to know that there are so many readers who are contributing their opinions. I have something to comment after reading all the 56 above.
Kiasuism was molded onto its people by the govt of Spore over time. If you look at it closely, the govt started this kiasu thing. You’ve to pay in advance for everything and when money is due back to you from the govt, you have to collect. Eg. smart card, parking coupons etc. Else where, the govt authorities need to collect from you.
Spore govt will deduct your CPF to buy insurance and what other health isurance where they deem fit and if you do not want to be in this scheme, you need to opt out. Why cant it be the reverse?? I am sad for those senior citizens who cant read and is not aware of this scheme and losing thier savings in the CPF.
In Holland, thier senior citizens get free medical attention after retirement, and the above 60 yrs even get free help from the govt to repair their roof or TV athenas as it is dangerous for them to climb. What do we get from Spore??
You can only use part of your medi-save even when there is enough to cover for the entire amount. Govt starts to shift the withdrawal amount when they want to. CPF is our force savings, return it to the retirees upon retirement age, not keep thier money and tell them how and when to spent it.
My saying is,, Govt is so kiasu that you squanter all your savings away and they need to take care of you,, so where is the love for its own citizens who had been paying taxes all these years,, they need to fend for themselves when they retire with not only no help from the Spore govt but having their savings locked up like a 5 yrs old kid and being told as to how to spend it.
I know of people who is so frastrated that they gave up their citizenship to withdraw their savings and the govt condems them as quitters while foriegners who take up citizenship are named FT.
Its our educational system that brings about kiasuism and behaviour of its people are part of the educational system. The govt gave no room for mistakes, you do it correctly or die but yet our Ching Ho is allow to make mistakes one after the other and is comfortably sitting there squantering our CPF money.
I am not a quitter but a FT abroad. Just give me back my entitled savings in the CPF and I am happy where I am outside Spore.
Dear Mr. Glen, first and foremost, I would like to apologise on behalf of majority of singaporeans for the remarks which may have offended you and your fellow citizens. I don’t think the rest of the Singaporeans share the same sentiments. On the contrary we do have high a regard for the goverments and people of Finland & Denmark.
If you could be so kind as to write to our national paper, it would indeed be a big favor to us. The details are as follows:-
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A very well articulated piece by Mr Gregory Glen.
While I agree the ministers’ pay has to be in line with market rate, but to assume the entire civil service to be pegged accordingly after the ministers’ pay sounds like an old idea stolen from why we have GRC during GE. Firstly, you rationalise using the heavy weights and then conveniently move the rest (some mediocre ones) into the scheme. We need the government to be more transparent than this.
This is a clear sign that the ruling party is feeling extremely insecure about itself for the foreseeable future in the area of attracting new blood and retaining the old in public office. Holding public office comes from the heart and soul of a person who aspires to be an MP or minister. It is reinforces the fact that material driven society we live in is fully endorsed and blessed by our leaders. We have often heard our leaders holler when other nations’ leaders were to pass comments or remarks about us. It is interfering meddling in our domestic politics. We seem to have all the licence on the planet to do it to them. Maybe we have the licence to do so as diplomatic protocol allows immunity to one who has reached a certain age. So far in life, I have learnt that only wine and bank balances get better with age. It seems I’ll have to add politicians to that list as well.
I wish to apologise to the three countries and their citizens.
If anyone of them would offer me their citizenship, I’ll gladly pack to catch the next flight out.
I did not vote for the current mediocre government we have, but I suspect the majority of Singaporeans didn’t either. The 66.6% is the majority of a minority only. The truth is still out there.
Mr Glen, please bear with our senile MM for a few more years, like most of us do in Singapore.
I am confident your country will still exist after another 40 years. I am not so sure about our tiny dot still being around then.
Again, my sincere apologies.
One of the most successful and insidious ways for governments to cream money out of the populace is through inflation,i.e. by increasing the money supply. Of course the “increase” is, to put it in another way, the government just printing money, spending it, and as it trickles down into the economy, translates into inflation. Inflation means that the purchasing power of your dollar has declined as more $ are out there chasing the same amount of goods and services. Of course wages increase a little as the money trickles down, but it will never catch up with inflation. If you were to measure your cost of living year-to-year, you will get the true rate of inlfation, not the statistics issued by the government, and from there, you can extrapolate how much more was sucked out of your income (besides taxes, GST, etc.) to pay for government spending!
Ministers, ministers of state and parliamentary secretary etc should stand for election on single constituencies rather than helming GRC.The first generation leaders all stood in single ward constituencies and they had no difficulty getting elected before the introduction of GRC.Singaporeans are now mature and sophisticated and should be given a chance to vote.Let Singaporeans decide whether a minister is worth getting their millions at the general election.If ministers are
able to reduce the cost of housing, education, health and transport,then even a salary of 5 million dollars is justified.
What is worrisome is that all ministers ,except the defence minister, will be judged by the PM and MM on the amount of money they make in their ministry.Hence there will definitely be an increase in the cost of housing, education, transport and health etc.
We need to make these people millionaires in order to run our country well as we are in shortage of intelligent, capable and honest people.
We do not have capable and good opposition parties to speak rightly for the people, as most had migrated, therefore our Ministers deserve the millions to speak on our behalf.
This is a very urgent matter, we must save as much as possible and increase all taxes as soon as possible so that we are able to pay millions of dollars to attract perfect intelligent people to run and keep our country ahead and even teach others how to be more democratic.
We must work harder to keep paying our inflated house and car values so that we do not have any free time to joint political parties to go against the government.
Keep up the good work and good luck to those intelligent voters who had supported the PAP.
Spore is a unique country being a small dot but is in the first world category.
Please do believe that most Singaporeans are not arrogant people and do not believe in commenting on how other governments run their countries. Its just those who want to glorify themselves and demean others that they pass such comments. We hope to maintain good and cordial relationships with people of all nations.
anyone consider the fact that maybe singapore has limited lifespan and PAP men are enriching themselves, and parking most of their wealth overseas to prepare to run away when Singapore goes belly up?
by that time we open up the treasury to find maybe its all empty thanks to Ho Ching’s bad management and President Nathan or some former ISD man who is made president did not do a thing to stop the funds being spent?
singapore dollar will overnight be worth less than 1 Rupiah.
or 1 Peso.
our maids will be richer than us!
the devil has bequethed its bride with money and that will
at the end destroy the moral human values in a nation. money gives you power and ultimately destroys the soul. you will end up with a population of mercenaries.
God save Singapore.
I am living in Singapore for 2 years plus. My family and I decided to leave Singapore by the end of this year.
I am shocked of the education my daughter is receiving here. This city (country) is ruled by a dictator/monarch. I am not sure what yet what form.
It is sad to see that the average Singaporeans are constantly brainwashed to the benefit of the “ruling” class.
The “Minister Mentor” & his whole gang should be ashamed. Raising GST, making Singapore uninhabitable for the normal person, raising their salaries… The list is long.
I for one have had enough. I rather pay my tax in an other country. I feel sorry for the normal Singaporean and their actually nice country. What will their future be? The costs of living here is spiraling and the politicians need a raise - natural.
If one is such a greedy person, one should keep low profile and not risk to talk so much dumb and insulting nonsense to distract from the reality. A knowledgeable population represented b y a greedy totalitarian narrow minded family.
I, as a foreigner express my sorrow to the Singaporean population.
As a foreigner and a mother, I feel raising children here a dilemma. How does one explain the disparity in ‘incomes’ among proffessional and ministers [who are civil servants]. Politics is a service to the public and a noble cause, as a priest devote his Life to the Chrurch. A minister devote his life to his country!
How can we raise our children to have ‘a backbone’ if this country is run like in medieval times. Whatever the King says must be obeyed or beheaded!!
This is the 21st Century.
Singaporean ….you are nice people please stand up for your rights!! Speak Up . Unity is strength! Do it as a group!
Quote from animal farm:
…“Comrades!” he cried. “You do not imagine, I hope, that
we pigs are doing this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these things is to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the wellbeing of a pig. We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for YOUR sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. Do you know what would happen if we pigs failed in our duty? Jones would come back! Yes, Jones would come back! Surely, comrades,”
cried Squealer almost pleadingly, skipping from side to side
and whisking his tail, “surely there is no one among you who wants to see Jones come back?”
Now if there was one thing that the animals were completely certain of, it was that they did not want Jones back. When it was put to them in this light, they had no more to say. The importance of keeping the pigs in good health was all too obvious. So it was agreed without further argument that the milk and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when they ripened) should be reserved for the pigs alone…
The 2nd Exodus after Mosses lead the people out of Egypt:
So sorry for the remarks made by our MM.
To :The citizens of Denmark and Finland.
Do you have enough land and space to accomodate few hundred thousand or 1 to 2 million talented and hard working people. We are tired and frastrated people who wanted to find another land to build our homes. Lets them have increments and do what they wants.
My family migrated to Singapore for almost 70 years. I am the 3rd generation that my family have planted the roots in Singapore. I do not want my decendants to suffer in this type of enviroment and i wanted badly to uprooted the whole entire clan from this place and move to a new land to build our homes. Quick send your delegates and rescue team!. We want to find a peaceful place to build our homes.
Does this sound exactly like what is happening here?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_shlaes&sid=aN24BW8B5Kqo
I hope senile and arrogant men will stop passing disparaging remarks against other countries.
Please consider the plight and safety of Singaporeans working or holidaying overseas. These poor Singaporeans will be at the receiving end if there is back-lash arising from just stupid comments.
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What singapore lacks is a strong opposition. This can be largely attributed on the monopoly the Pap has. Unlike the United states and other countries it has always been the Pap. And how can we expect to have a strong opposition when the Pap keeps such a strong hold on all our media outlets and we don’t even have a free press. Opposition members are sued and put in jail for criticising the government. Is this freedom? We have no freedom of speech in Singapore. We don’t even have an independent paper. The straits times is owned by the government and instead of being a government watch dog which in more liberated countries is seen as the role of the media, it is a puppet, merely putting forth the views of the government. Our media is as bad as Fox news of the US except that we don’t have alternative media outlets to turn to to help us sift through the bias.
Besides that, the Pap continually brainwashes the youth. Going through 10 years of Singapore education (I am currently furthuring my studies in Australia), I find my views were greatly molded by subjects like Social Studies or History which showed Singapore, or more specifically, the PAP, in such a great light. Teachers exalted the role MM played in the attainment of independence. Countries like Malaysia are depicted as being unreasonable where our government was the honest, fair, understanding one. Is this truely the case? Can we continue to support PAP just because they made singapore work some 40 years ago? Even my own mother refuses to listen to reason and proudly declares support for the PAP and scolding me if i so much as mentioned anything negative about MM. I’m sick of hearing talk about the role MM played. Yes, he did help singapore succeed so many years ago. But he has been paid well for it. Times have changed and we cannot stick to the same beliefs that brought us through tough times before. The world is changing and sticking to old beliefs with do nothing to furthur Singaporean’s interest.
With regards to the pay of the ministers, I am totally disgusted. Yes, there have been no cases of Singapore ministers being corrupt, but what we are doing is as good as making it legal. Yes, they say that some of the ministers earned 200000 a month before joining the PAP. But surely this isnt’ the case every month, their pay wouldn’t be as stable as it is with the PAP. The reasoning given by the PAP is that paying large amounts of money is essential to get the very best. Shouldn’t there be a degree of public service invoved? That the ministers want to serve, though they might earn less, becuase they want to give back to their country? Isn’t that what the Pap advocates? Giving back to the country that has “given so much to you”. It is hypocritical and ridiculous to expect Singaporeans to give back to the country when our self serving ministers are only looking out for themselves and needing to be wooed by larger pay checks. How can they justify their 1m pay check? I read a comment above which siad that mm earned 3 million a year. I don’t know how reliable his/her sources are but all MM has done lately is criticise other governments. Criticising other governments is immature and if the PAP is as wonderful as they say they are then woudln’t they realise that it is in our interest not to piss everyone else off? Criticising other countries does nothing to help singapore.
I’m so sick and tired of PAP. They stifle and “dumb down” society by restricting their view points and discouraging different opinions. So many people are migrating to another country becuase they cannot take the way Singapore is being run by the PAP. There isn’t even any point in joining the opposition anymore because they are totally controlled by the PAP.
If I did have children one day, there is no way I would subject them to the education Singapore provides. How can we be called a democracy when all there is no choice. What we have on our hands is a dictatorship and to seal the deal, the PAP has done such a good job of brainwashing the general population is largely unaware of this.
Hi.
Good design, who make it?
Let’s all quit now and let foreign talent flood the place. then LKY can boast that he is ruling an international elite, and they will all bow to him and offer their humble obedience.
or he could pick a kennel of dogs to rule over too, since that’s how he treats his fellow Singaporeans.
wonder how come some old people refuse to roll over and die.
http://www.topwomen.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=26898
Naive comments from such as elder statesmen.